Or, Subtitled: From Virginia Farms to Kentucky Ironworks
I’ve listed Elizabeth as the second of George and Elizabeth Brooks Rice’s children, though it’s possible that her sister Mary was older, and that Elizabeth and not Ruth was even the oldest of George Rice and Elizabeth Brooks and George Rice’s children. The previously cited August 1802 list of George and Elizabeth’s children found in the case file of the Augusta County, Virginia, chancery court case filed by Province McCormick against George’s executors places Elizabeth first in the list of children.[1] But the 15 April 1808 complaint of Bartholomew Smith in his chancery suit against George Rice’s heirs and children, also previously discussed, which seems to me to have a more correct list of George and Elizabeth’s children by order of birth, lists Ruth first, followed by Mary and then Elizabeth.[2]
BEGATS AND BEQUEATHALS 
I find this document very interesting. I am looking for the parents of a George Rice from Big Sandy, Kentucky who married Easter Hurst in 1856
Do you have more information about the George Rice (son of Jehu Rice and Elizabeth Biggs) on this record?
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Thank you for your comment. I’m glad this was of interest. My records indicate that George Rice, son of John Jehu Rice and Mary Elizabeth Biggs, married Catherine Fritz in Greenup County, Kentucky, on 26 December 1854 and died 16 February 1917 at York in Athens County, Ohio.
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Is there a possibility that this Jehu/John Rice is the John Rice, aged 5 years in 1798 apprenticed to an Edmund Rice to learn to be a farmer?
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Early_Kentucky_Settlers/whcQpqnUCEcC?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=Edmund%20Rice
And if so, does this coincide with the Uncle Edmund Rice who left Ky/VA lands to a John Rice, and the Edmund Rice mentioned in same book above who left the balance of his estate to “adopted son John Rice, whom he raised from Infancy.”
I am trying to understand the tangle of John Rices and if this Edmund Rice could be Edmund, son of Patrick, who possibly could have immigrated to Jefferson County KY via SW PA at an early date.
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If the John Rice apprenticed to Edmund Rice in 1798 in Jefferson County, Kentucky, is John Jehu, son of Elizabeth Rice, then I wonder who the Edmund Rice living in Jefferson County, Kentucky, in 1798 might be. This Edmund can’t be the Edmund Rice who was the uncle of John Jehu and who named John Jehu in his will, since that Edmund died in 1797 in Frederick County, Virginia. Your supposition that the Edmund to whom John Jehu was apprenticed in Jefferson County, Kentucky, in 1798 was Edmund, son of Patrick, seems worth pursuing, since researchers don’t seem to know where that Edmund Rice died. However, because Patrick’s son Edmund was born in 1737, this Edmund in Kentucky in 1798 would have been a man advanced in years, especially since he died in 1821.
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While the age doesn’t match up with what is listed as Edmund Rice is the bible transcription the Edmund Rice who died in 1821 in Jefferson County was 87 years old according to
Register of Kentucky State Historical Society
Vol. 39, No. 127 (April, 1941), pp. 116-137 (22 pages)
Published By: Kentucky Historical Society
https://www.jstor.org/stable/23371681
I’m not sure what the discrepancy means because if he was 87 as this states he would’ve been born around 1734 not 1737.
It is mostly me trying to hamfist what I know about my EKA’s Grandfather who “was a native of the old dominion and arrived in Kentucky at a later date” – Later date being after my EKA’s father William arrived. The evidence I have is that William was in Louisville very early (about 1780) Edmund Rice appears in the 1789 Jefferson County Tax List and a couple of pages later is an Edward Rice. A couple of pages after that you find my William Rice and William Rice Jr, my EKA’s brother and father.
I’ve also found more links that provide strong evidence Edmund Rice in 1772 Tyrone Township and early SW PA/NW VA records is George’s brother Edmund.
Names like John Stephenson, Thomas Gist, Isaac Meeson, and Edmund Lindsey show up as either neighbors or in records with George Rice/Edmund Rice/Patrick Rice on early road crews and those same names seem to have migrated the same time with Edmund Rice and show up in SW PA records/tax lists/court records. An Edward and an Edmund show up in these old records(like the Jefferson County 1789 Tax list), which makes me think Edward Rice could be Edmund’s son?
Click to access timeline_edmund.pdf
I’ve also found another record I’ll have to dig up that says Edmund Rice was a Captain in the Westmoreland County militia – When he is mentioned as providing testimony/intelligence regarding interstate militias of PA and VA skirmishing over land rights.
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I think the death notice for the Edmund Rice who died in 1821 in Jefferson County, Kentucky, could have gotten his age a bit wrong. If so, then it seems possible to me that this Edmund could be the son of Patrick Rice and Elizabeth Decow. I have never been able to track Patrick and Elizabeth’s son Edmund beyond Frederick County, Virginia. Did the Edmund Rice who died in Jefferson County, Kentucky, in 1821 leave estate records? Have you found other records for Edmund in either Jefferson County or in Tyrone township? As you know, the recurrence of given names in this Rice family makes it very hard to sort the many people with the same given name.
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I have not located any estate records.
I have found an Edmund Rice and an Edward Rice in the 1789 Jefferson County Tax Lists.
I’ve also found 2 other Court Records for an Edmund Rice when in Southwest PA, (also included are some other Frederick County, VA names and people mentioned in early Road crew records of Edmund Rice and George Rice in Frederick County VA)
The SW PA records are confusing because of the county boundaries moving around and the records themselves are so sparse. But there’s an Edward Rice, and an Edmund Rice mentioned in a few records in SW PA at the time. A few threads to try to pull, however, and to try to read between the lines.
Another question would be if this is Edmund Rice, son of Patrick who inherited along with his brothers 1333 1/3 acres of Land in Kentucky what happened with all of that? You’re also left wondering how well any of these people knew each other? How often did people lose communication when they traveled out to the frontier, never to be heard from again? etc. I don’t know.
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I’m pretty sure the Rice kinship network kept in close touch with each other after family members went from Virginia to Kentucky — and probably after some went to Pennsylvania from Virginia. If the Edmund dying in Jefferson County, Kentucky, was in Pennsylvia at some point, do you think he went there from Frederick County, Virginia, and then went to Kentucky?
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That is my guess if I were to invent a scenario based on bits of information, albeit incomplete.
We know Edmund served militia in Virginia, and we know that other Frederick County Virginia neighbors migrated to SW PA as well.
One would be a John Stephenson. Admittedly I haven’t done a lot of cross referencing to quite figure out if there are the exact same people and I don’t even know if that is possible.
However, a John Stephenson served with a George Rice in the Frederick County militia during the French and Indian war and a John Stephenson and Edmund Rice exists in a court record for Yohogania County PA/VA in disputed PA/VA Territory together in 1778. A John Stephenson also is on the 1772 Tyrone Township tax list with an Edmund Rice, along with Zachariah Connell who married Rebecca Rice.
As well, an Edmund Lindsey and Edmund Lindsey Jr are both listed in Long Marsh Surveys with George Rice, and an Edmund Lindsey shows up with an Edmund Rice in early SW PA land records in 1778 where the both appraised the estate of a John Vance.
Link:
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Minute_Book_of_the_Virginia_Court_Held_f/X-DSd4cJmC4C?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=%20%22Edmund%20Rice%22
This would also fit with the Edmund Rice who testified as part of the Westmoreland County, PA militia regarding PA and VA militia’s skirmishing over territory rights.
I haven’t found any primary sourcing for any of the information in the book “Pastor John Corbly” but if it is to be believed they traveled from Virginia after 1768 to the area via Nemacolins path which ends up right on the Monogahela in the area due scout land for their service in the French and Indian wars — They supposedly traveled with Swans, Richard Chenoweth family, a “John Rice Jr” family and Van Metres among others. Those families all existed in SW PA before migrating to Kentucky. RIchard Chenoweth specifically was an original lot holder in Louisville (along with a William Rice, my EKA’s suspected father William) — Chenoweth also owned land on Six Mile Creek in current Henry County KY which is was my 3x Great Grandfather and brother lived.
Then of course we know George Rice traveled the Frontier with Cresswell, and had been in and around Fort Duquesne/Fort Pitt at the time, where he “visited his brother South of Fort Pitt” — An Edward Rice is mentioned in that journal as well, which could very well be the Edward Rice who ends up in Jefferson County KY the next page after an Edmund Rice in the 1789 Tax List.
How it all ties to my William Rice and who exactly he is, who knows. Him and my EKA’s brother were with some of the very first pioneers in Kentucky according to William M Rice’s eulogy when he died in Henry County in 1829:
Link: https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/220709785/william-m-rice
“Both sire and son were early emigrants to Jefferson County, Kentucky. They shared alike in the hazards and privations of our first settlements. I was there too, and can well attest the gallantry of the men and women of that day”
And I believe I’ve mentioned that my Rice surname Y DNA is a 37/37 biomarker match with a direct relative of “John Rice Jr” who supposedly founded Rice’s Landing PA South of Fort Pitt on the Monongahela, which suggests a very close relationship with my EKA’s father, William Rice.
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I continue to think that the answer — or one answer — to the questions you’re raising lies in the Virginia land grants made in southwest Pennsylvania after the Revolution. If you could find the Virginia grant or grants given to members of the Rice family for the original tract that became Rice’s Landing, you might have answers to a number of your questions, including which family member or members got the grant, why it was given, and when the Rice family arrived there.
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It definitely would be a start but I’ve yet to find anything close to the original unfortunately.
I’ve also seen conflicting information – Some say 1780 as the date, others 1786. If it was 1786 it would have to be a different John Rice because I was under the assumption John Rice died in 1785.
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You’re right that the will of John Rice, son of Patrick Rice and Elizabeth Decow/Decou, was probated in Frederick County, Virginia, 3 May 1785.
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I’ve also discovered that an Edmund Lindsey and Edmund Rice both served in the same Virginia regiment during the revolution on multiple records in 1777.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QSQ-G9WB-CRNR?i=307&cc=2068326&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AQL6Y-L44F
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Yes, the given name Edmund ran in Frederick County, Virginia, Lindsey families of the Long Marsh who were connected by marriage to the Rice family.
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I’m not sure if I had ever seen the Lindsey/Rice marriage record.
However I’ve recently discovered as well that John Stephenson, Edmund Lindsey, and Edmund Rice are mentioned together regarding the Westmoreland County militia and VA/PA skirmishes.
“Contains a letter from Governor Patrick Henry to Benjamin Harrison, Speaker of the House of Delegates, regarding the unsettled state of the boundary line between Virginia & Pennsylvania. The Governor encloses six depositions taken on 11 November 1778 from various citizens of Westmoreland County, Pennsylvania. Deponents include William Crew, Col. James Smith, Col. Providence Mounts, Edmund Lindsay, Samuel Wells, & Edmond Rice. The deponents were taken prisoner in Pittsburgh by Capt. Thomas Bays and Capt. John Harness on the orders of Col. John Stephenson. The deponents reported that they were bound, beaten, and tried by court martial for mutiny, desertion, and disobedience to the orders of the Virginia Militia.”
https://lva.primo.exlibrisgroup.com/discovery/fulldisplay?docid=alma990005026440205756&context=L&vid=01LVA_INST:01LVA&lang=en&search_scope=MyInstitution_noAER&adaptor=Local%20Search%20Engine&tab=LibraryCatalog&query=any,contains,Edmund%20Rice&offset=0
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I may have mentioned this to you previously, but in case I haven’t thought to do so: Susan Grabek, who administers DNA group 2 in the international Lindsay surname DNA project, has done years of valuable research on that set of Lindseys, the so-called Long Marsh Lindseys of Frederick Co., who had marriage ties to the Rice family. Her website for group 2 Lindseys is full of outstanding information, including Rice information. It’s here: https://mimpickles.com/lindsey/group2/
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Great – I had not scene that page specifically previously so thank you for sharing. It looks like I had ran across one of her documents previously that she had compiled that links Stephenson/Edmund Rice/Fort Pitt Lindseys and their travel from Frederick County.
The more threads I pull the more it makes sense that Edmund Rice could have been my Jonathan B Rice’s Grandfather, but always leads to more questions without any obvious answers. Not to mention the whole Patrick Rice/John Rice Sr/ John Rice Jr line that is almost certainly incorrect that is all over the genealogy web. Hopefully as more Rices join the Y DNA project the answers will fill in.
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Another interesting little connection:
1792 – 1803 Selected Abstracts from Logan County, KY Deed Book A1, 1792-1802
p.138-139 2 Feb 1795 Joseph Meason received from Thomas Meason father of William Meason for 30Ł Deed of Gift …. 200 a. Witnesses: Barnett, Thomas Comstock, Wm Morgan Land granted to Edmond Rice, assignee of George Rice assignee of Richard Archer by Patrick Henry, Governor of Virginia.
Unsure which Measons these are exactly but they’re related. But Edmond Rice was neighbors with Isaac Meeson,stone mason, and another Frederick County VA immigrant in very early SW PA/NW VA and testified in a court case about Isaac Meeson’s marriage in 1777.
Isaac’s brother was Lt Thomas Meeson, who was in the Westmoreland Militia. https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Meason-20 – An Edmund Rice was also in the Westmoreland Militia.
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That’s a good find, the Meeson connection to Edmond Rice and then the recorrence of that surname in this Logan County, Kentucky, deed. Thanks for sharing it.
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https://www.8thvirginia.com/the-soldiers.html
Capt. John Stephenson (December 10, 1775-September, 1776) (Posts: 3/17/21, 3/23/22)
1st Lieut. Robert Beall (December 10, 1775-September, 1776) (Post: 3/17/21)
[2nd Lieut. Simon Girty]*
2nd Lieut. Edward Rice (?-February, 1776) (Post: 3/17/21)
[2nd Lieut. Simon Morgan]**
Ens. Simon Morgan (Post: 3/17/21)**
[Ens. Benjamin Biggs]**
All but convinced this is Edward/Edmund Rice, son of Patrick. He and his family and neighbors show up together a good amount in early records. Tracks with the multiple John Stephenson/Edmund Rice connections above, and the area tracks.
West Augusta discrect bordered the Ohio and contain parts of modern day WV/VA and SW PA.
John Stephenson and Edmund Rice along with Thomas Gist (another Frederick Co immigrant) also testified regarding an unofficialized marriage of 2 others in 1772 in SW PA court records.
An odd hiccup is the Edmund Rice who was beaten/imprisoned with other contemporaries on the order of a Colonel John Stephenson for being disloyal to Virginia and were forced to fight for the Virginia Militia. I can see a scenario where some of these early pioneers loyalities changed as they moved and if it is the same John Stephenson maybe Edmund Rice would have been treated like a traitor.
This spreadsheet someone made has been extremely helpful to me placing Rice’s/Lindsey and other Frederick County VA peers together in SW PA at athe time: https://mimpickles.com/lindsey/fort_pitt/timeline_david.pdf
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Thank you for this valuable information. The helpful spreadsheet is from Susan Grabek’s website for the DNA group called Group 2, the “Long Marsh Lindseys,” in the international Lindsay DNA study. Susan heads that group and has spent years researching that set of Lindseys and related families including the Rices.
I think you may well be right that the Edward Rice who was a 2nd lieutenant in the 8th Virginia was Edmund, son of Patrick Rice. As you know, Edmond/Edmund often gets read as Edward when people transcribe records. I appreciate your ongoing good research on this family, and your willingness to share your findings.
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I hope that there is someone that might come across a connection I haven’t seen or made. The undeniable Y DNA connections make it easier. I’m pretty confident I know who my 4x Grandfather’s father was based on tracking the Y DNA with available historical information that thankfully mentioned names.
But none of it ultimately solves this widely shared, obviously wrong, “John Rice Jr” “John Rice Sr 1730-1785” problem in every online genealogy I’ve seen.
As we’ve previously discussed Patrick Rice’s letter back to Isaac Decow discusses his wife having a child that matches up with the birth date of John Rice in 1744-5?, but for some reason people online think that was the child of “John Rice Sr” -1730-1785 which doesn’t much make sense.
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I will keep trying to find information to help sort these Rices out. About the John Rice born in 1730: I find no such person in the family of Patrick Rice. Since we know for sure from the family bible record that Patrick married Elizabeth Decow on 3 December 1734 and that they had, among other children, a son John born 11 August 1744, how does a John Rice born in 1730 fit into thise family picture? As you say, this makes little sense. And where are any documents supporting the existence of that John born in 1744?
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There are a lot of unverified or seemingly unsourced claims in the book “Pastor John Corbly”
But one that seems to be sourced and legitimate is Pastor Corbly’s release of his land to a John Rice in 1773 in Hampshire Co VA, now modern day WV –D~ED BooK III. Page 137, Hampshire Co., W. Va
A lot of avenues I have yet to explore – but there are connections to the other witnesses on that record and Edmund son of Patrick.
Another connection is the name William Cracraft as a witness. A John Rice and William Cracraft, along with a couple of Bowell’s show up in this supposed record of
“Early Settlers, Petition for a New State:
Fayette, Washington & Greene Cos, PA
PETITION FOR A NEW STATE”
-From an original petition for a new state located in the Library of Congress.No date on document.Papers of the Continental Congress No 48, Folios 251-6, pages 89-96.
https://www.genealogy.com/forum/regional/states/topics/va/36668/
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I suppose what’s not clear to me is why some people — or I may be misunderstanding? — want to think that John Rice in the records you’re citing was born in 1730. Why is it not possible that he is the son of Patrick Rice, when we know Patrick did have a son who was living in that time frame and his family had connections to that part of Pennsylvania?
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I’m really unsure. Often unsure why people online are satisfied with perpetuating obviously questionable information as fact. Granted, I have the benefit of Y DNA to work with.
I think ages ago you pointed out a good thought, which is the word “Jr.” Jr back then possibly being an actual younger male of the same name but not necessarily father-son relationship? One source seems to think John Rice “Sr’ has a will in Hampshire Count VA, but I’ve never been able to find it. (John Sr.mentions John in will in Deed Book 3, pg. 137, Hampshire County, Virginia)
I think it stems from that fact and the very earliest SW PA/NW VA records, where a John Rice, John Rice “Jr” and “John RIce III” show up together if my memory serves.
I will need to reevaluate all of the connections. My research tends to be chaotic at times, my hope is someone wants to spend a lot of time reading the comments on this blog and sees something I don’t.
All ultimately in the goal of tracing my Rice line as far back as I can with genetic genealogy.
However, my not at all close to definitive guess is at least Edmund RIce, son of Patrick had at least 2 sons John, and William, father of my 4X Grandfather Jonathan B Rice (1790 -1872), and possibly had another son named Basdel/Basdill.
All of the connections are difficult to suss out succinctly via text, or at all. But all of the names/places/biographical information and everything else I can find points to a situation like that. Unless there is raised-by-relatives quasi-adoptions I can’t suss out. The amount of shared first names in this family is incredibly difficult.
I may mentioned, but I have a couple of really interesting Rice surname Y DNA matches that could honestly point back to before Patrick Rice. All of my Rice’s Landing matches are 36, 37 out of 37/37 biomarkers. One relative of this supposed “John Rice Jrs” son, Jesse Rice, only has 25 biomarkers and that is a 25/25 match.
If we’re assuming the Y DNA all traces back to Patrick Rice, these other 2 Rice surname Y DNA matches are peculiar, because they are 2-3 steps genetically away by the same surname – but both of those end in brick walls about 1800 SW PA, and they aren’t any names I’ve ran into being connected.
Another Y DNA match that is more closely related to these two matches than I am, does not share the Rice last name. But they can trace their surnames direct Paternal line, and that person’s wife, back to being relative neighbors to an Aaron Rice in SW PA before 1800, which is curious.
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I share your bafflement at the willingness of some researchers posting material online to reach unfounded conclusions on the basis of tiny pieces of evidence or no evidence at all. Yes, Jr. meant, in old records, a male who was younger than another male living nearby who had the same name, but was not necessarily the father of Jr.
Your DNA matches sound fascinating. If those you seem to be matching a generation or two back beyond Patrick Rice knew more about where their Rice roots lie, this would be really important information.
Have you tried using the new all-text search tool at FamilySearch, to see if it points you to any information you have not yet found about your John Rice and other Rices living in the Pennsylvania “extension” of the Frederick County, Virginia, family?
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Whatever the case, I appreciate the depth of your research in general, but especially with to the Patrick Rice family. Wherever the answers lie I imagine it isn’t without genetic genealogy, that’s as close to fact as any of it is going to get. I imagine AI could eventually suss out the connections be a tremendous aide. Ancestry’s algorithm has already detected and summarized connections I wouldn’t have ever found myself.
I am singularly focused on this specific Y DNA surname lineage and picking away at that. Obviously you interests are much more in depth and varied, so I appreciate your entertaining this back-and-forth.
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I think it’s great that you’re using DNA matching as a tool to help you sort your “deep” Rice ancestry. It’s a great tool when used well. We each have our own pieces, and when we put them together, a bigger picture emerges. I’ll keep doing all I can to dig into the records of this family and help put together a bigger documented picture, and will hope to find some new information that may be useful to you.
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Hopefully this isn’t too jumbled but some peculiar connections I had kind of stumbled into definitely brings more questions but feel like its another step at getting me and everyone else closer to accurately naming these Rices.
Link:
This is a snip of a larger plat map for the land owners at the time and I’ve temporarily misplaced the full original. But It begs to the question whether those are 2 different John Rices for 1. And I may not understand how those things used to work, but if the patent was granted in 1786, even though it was in pursuant of a 1780 VA warrant, it certainly couldn’t be John Rice son of Patrick if he in fact died in 1785? And if it isn’t him then who is this John Rice or (Rices)
I’ve long suspected that Edmund son of Patrick could have been father to the man I’m looking for, William Rice my 5x Grandfather. I’ve theorized that William could have also had a brother named John or Jonathan based on some repeated connections, albeit maybe they are just a bit circumstantial.
Most of the people in the linked plat map show up in 1772 and 1773 Tax Lists. Particular focusing on Tyrone township, which includes my suspect Edmond Rice and Zachariah Connell wife Elizabeth daughter of Patrick. The next township over, is Springhill Township, current day Greene County but all of this would have been Bedford County at the time. Springhill township includes many of the neighbors to John Rice or Rices in this plat map (Teagardens, Swans, Murdock, Van Metres,Harrod)
There is a 1773 SW PA/NW VA Indictment that includes a John Rice, William Rice, Thomas Roach(next door neighbor on plat map and supposed BIL to John Rice of Rice’s Landing) Acquila Martin, “half-brother to John Rice” and other area neighbors on this plat map.
Link:
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Annals_of_Southwestern_Pennsylvania/DlAMAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22William+Teagarden%22+and+%22William+Rice%22&pg=PA17&printsec=frontcover
I’ve never seen a William and Jonathan or John Rice together in these early tax lists but all I can find is a transcription which lists in the 1773 Tax List of Springhill township, with a bunch of other families and/or people that show up in the attached plat map snippet.
Rees Jonothan 3.6 Jonathan
Rees William 2.0
Link: https://www.pa-roots.com/bedford/taxlists/tl1773springhill.htm
What are the odds The 1773 indictment source includes a William and Jonathan Rice brought into court with neighbors to this plat map- With all these other multi-sourced people/families…. and then the 1773 tax list includes a William and Jonathan “Rees” but no William and John Rice?
Just more peculiar evidence that no one online has the Patrick Rice/John Rice ‘sr’ / John Rice ‘jr” situation figured out and it all most likely rests on the mis-assumption of “Jr” automatically meaning “son of” when it didn’t.
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Thank you for the update about what your valuable research on your Rice line is turning up. I haven’t really done enough to track the Rices in Pennsylvania to comment intelligently on what you’ve found, other than to say that I think you’re going about this in just the right way, trying to find links between neighboring landowners which point you back to where they came from and possible relationships with them. I notice in the plat map you included that there’s a reference to some of the land being surveyed under a Virginia certificate. I continue to think that if you can find those Virginia grant records for the land in Pennsylvania claimed by the Rices and interrelated families, you may find some very important information.
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